The FarmED Podcast: Insects and Regenerative Agriculture with Dr George McGavin

Mar 17, 2025

The latest episode of the FarmED Podcast is all about bugs! Presenter, Alex Dye, FarmED’s resident entomologist, is in conversation with fellow entomologist, Dr Geroge McGavin.

George McGavin was an academic zoologist for 30 years before becoming a television presenter. He is widely recognised throughout the UK as a regular contributor to the BBC One Show delighting viewers with his bug-life and ecology reports. 

He is the author of numerous books and renowned speaker, regularly inspiring and educating audiences about insects, ecology, evolution, conservation and exploration. He is a Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society, and Honorary Life Fellow of the Royal Entomological Society. He also has several insect species named in his honour, all of which he hopes will survive him! 

George chats to Alex about the links between regenerative agriculture and entomology and the vital role that insects play in the health of our planet.

Transcript (Created by AI) 

The sun rises, the mist clears, a red kite soars across the horizon. You've arrived at FarmED for the FarmED podcast with me, your host Alex Dye. Please do check us out on social media @TheFarmEDPodcast, give us a like or give us a review, good or bad, let us know how we're doing. 

Today our guest is a TV personality, an author, scientist, ecologist, entomologist, the list could run and run, it's Dr. George McGavin. Thank you very much. How are you today? 

I'm very well yes it’s taken me all the way to the wilds of Oxfordshire through many roadworks but here we are. 

Quite a picturesque place to get lost though.

It's very picturesque, yes. And I look forward to the spring where it will look even more picturesque. Definitely. We are recording this of course, we're all aware, on my grandmother's birthday. So, happy birthday, Grandma. Do you want to say happy birthday to my Grandma? Happy birthday grandma. Where are you? There you are. Happy birthday. Yeah. What did mum get you? Socks I bet. This is better. George McGavin. So, cast your mind back. Let's go back. All these years ago you were thinking about a career, what you wanted to do for the future. Why insects?  Why is that something that grabbed you and made you think, that's what I want to do? Why insects? 

Well, I mean, as a kid growing up in Scotland, you know, I just, I couldn't think of anything more interesting to do than learning about the natural world. So at school, there were lots of things I quite enjoyed, English and art and sciences, but biology was the main thing. Now you should know something about me. At school I had a very bad stammer, in fact it was probably by the time I was 14, it was probably off the scale. I mean it was probably one of the worst stammers you've ever heard. And you might think well that's a bit of an odd career choice George and it is and if somebody had come back from now to meet me or had come back to to meet me age 14 and said right George. You're gonna be a university lecturer at Oxford for 25 years and when you've tired of that you're gonna become a television presenter. Well, I mean I couldn't think of anything more unlikely really, but there you are. I often tell audiences of kids that because there's somebody in that audience who is in a very similar position to me, you know, in fact one in a hundred adults still have a stammer and it can be very bad for you actually, it can be very isolating. So I tell that story and I sort of look around the audience just to see who's going, you know. So yeah, so, but biology was really it. Nothing else interested me particularly. So I did a degree in zoology at Edinburgh University. In Scotland, of course, you were very much expected to go to your hometown university, which we all did, of course. Although I did get a place at St Andrews, but you know, my parents said, no, no, you're going to Edinburgh, that's it. 

So, in my second year, we went off on a field course to the west coast of Scotland to Argyllshire, and were desperately excited about badgers, eagles, owls, you know, and not finding them.  

Charismatic megafauna? 

Charismatic megafauna, yes, quite. Get out your dictionaries for that one. And not finding them, because large animals are quite rare, they, you know, they're hard to work on as anybody knows, and yet at our feet were literally tens of thousands of wood ants doing remarkably interesting things. I knew before, but that was really when I thought, well, if you want to understand the natural world, if you want to understand what's happening, you've got to look at insects. They are the main event and arthropods in general. It's quite true and the more I found out in my degree course, the more I realised that I was absolutely right. So, of all the species we've described on earth in the last 300 or so years, 2.9% have a backbone. That's everything from aardvarks to zebras, blue whales, cats, bats, rats, mammals, amphibians, birds, fish, us, you know, 2.9% of  invertebrate animals are 80 plus percent. So, you know, if you call yourself a zoologist or a biologist and you don't know anything about insects, you're really not much of a zoologist really. From quite an academic point of view as well on insects, to my knowledge anyway, insects seem to cover more, this is getting science jargon heavy again, so apologies, they cover more ecological niches than any other group I can think of, in terms of the jobs they do, the roles they do, things they eat, parasites, predators, pollinators, you name it, they do it. I mean, a remarkable animal group that's been around for 500 million years, first animals on the land, first animals in the air, you know, they've been around for a hell of a long time. We appear, of course, very, very recently, and proceed to screw it all up, but basically, but yes, I mean, insects are the ecological oil, the machinery, they're the electrons flying about, they are what, they are why the world looks the way it does or did. Yeah, absolutely. And if you wanna learn any, in fact, most of our breakthroughs in genetics, physiology, ecology, behaviour, you name it, are done from studying insects. A, because it's much easier to do, they're cheaper, that you can breed them very easily. Animals are animals, animal cells are animal cells. It's essentially a very good proxy for everything. And in fact, if you care to work on large animals, it'll take you a very long time to find anything remotely interesting. It'll also be very expensive. And that's just basically why, personally, I find insects beautifully interesting and fascinatingly attractive. 

But look at the general audience, particularly TV audiences. They want furry, feathery things. There seems to be this inbuilt sort of ooh, insects, creepy crawlies you know. And so you get programs like Big Cat Diary. Well, Big Cat Diary was popular, but my god it was boring. I mean really boring. If you have a cat at home you will know what cats do. They sleep a lot and they occasionally eat stuff and they occasionally have sex, not very often. And you're hardly ever there at the time. And that's it. You know. So they had to edit something like 300 hours of nothing to make a tolerably interesting program. Whereas insects, well, I mean, ooh. 

Here at FarmED, we're very interested in regenerative agriculture, so anything we can do to improve the soils, environments, to ensure the future of our food production, that sort of thing. What can insects do to help on this journey? 

What do insects not do? It's very easy to say, oh well insects are pests. In fact the majority of people if you ask them to name an insect they'll talk about cockroaches or you know flies or something or some pest on a crop. You know there are no such thing as pests, there aren't any such things as weeds, I mean I don't use the word weed except when I'm saying it doesn't mean anything. There are wildflowers and there are no pests, there are insects, there are things that might eat what you want to grow, but that doesn't make them a pest, that makes them inconvenient. And it might be something to do with the way you grow your crops anyway. So yes, I mean, pollination is the big one, of course. I mean, there are 20,000 plus species of bees in the world. And actually, if you ask people in the street in the UK how many bees are there in Britain you know people really find it very difficult. They go well, there's bumblebees, there's a few of those and honeybees? I've had plenty of people who've said there's more than one species of bumblebee. It's just like wow! Yeah, yeah, well, you know it's a particularly northern hemisphere group and of course we have quite a large proportion of the world’s fauna, so we have 10% of the bumblebee fauna of the world. Not that we're looking after them, of course, but that's by the by. Honeybees are fine, but they can be a bit of a problem, of course, and if you ramp up the number of honeybees you've got to produce honey or wax or whatever else you're going to produce, that they can actually have an impact on other wild bees who don't have enough food around, particularly in urban areas it's a very big thing now to get honey bees. And a lot of people think that honey bees are really important. Well, yes and no, they're important in some ways, but the wild species of bees, and there's something like 250 plus solitary bee species in the UK, that are incredibly important for the pollination of all sorts of things. There's a lot of ignorance around. Where does it begin? Where does that ignorance stem from? As far as the beginning of agriculture. Because for a large part of our history, and if you take 250,000 years, as when more or less we were exactly as we are. So if I went back to a earth 250,000 years ago in a time machine and I picked an infant and brought them back now, they would be sitting here interviewing me or being interviewed, they'd be doing astrophysics, they'd be doing, you know, AI computing, you know, it's, we were basically there. 

All the rest is simply cultural. And for most of that 250 years, we were hunter-gatherers, that was it. Hunter-gatherer, hunter-gatherer. In fact, this book, which I've called Homo Sapiens, is a thousand page book. A thousand page book, okay, so for most of the book we're hunter-gatherers. Each page, each side of a page is 250 years and it's only when we get to about here, you can see how thin the back is, this is all hunter-gatherer. 40 pages from the end, a mere 10,000 years, things begin to change. You get early agriculture. This is it here. Blimey. That's how much it is. And then, about 6,000 years, let's go to 24 pages from the end of the book, we leave behind a recorded history. That's when we start to make imprints in wet clay, you know, which we can read eventually. And it's really only on the very last page, this page here, this is 250 years, okay? This is everything that we call modern history. This is the growth, the increase from a few hundred thousand to eight billion of us. Agriculture as it is today, the discovery of coal and oil, and it's going really wrong. But it probably started back in the invention of agriculture because suddenly you had lots of extra food which you could keep, you could sell, you could market, you could trade, and that became really important to not let anything else eat it. So we seem to have waged a constant battle against the bugs, as we say, for the last 10,000 years. And we regard them with great suspicion. 

Of course, there was a very interesting period in the 50s when horror films were coming to the fore. And you know, you can make aliens from outer space, which would look a bit odd, but hey, wait a minute, insects, they're the bad guys. Yeah, giant ants and things like that. There's a whole slew of films, giant ants and mantids that had been frozen in the polar ice caps, and they were impossible to beat. We had to beat them at all costs. You know end of civilisation etc and of course how many of the films end is pesticides so that they go, we you know guns won't stop them. You know napalm even wouldn't stop them, but chemical bombs hey. This is almost a way of softening up people to accept the beginnings of widespread pesticide use to the point that now we're using pesticides which are thousands of times more toxic than the original ones used and we treat the natural world like a factory floor. Now you know we know this is daft and we've been saying actually for a long time it's daft, but it seems to be we just roll on doing the same thing over and over again. So we apply fertiliser, of course, fertilisers, it used to be guano, of course, not that long ago, and then of course Haber-Bosch, you know, process. So in 1900, give or take, populations just under a billion, I think, and by the time, you know, we're now eight billion. And that was all because we were able to produce more and more food more cheaply. And there comes a point when you have to say, hmm, you know, can this go on? And of course, some people say it can go on. I am one of the ones who say, no, it can't. I mean, you cannot keep trying to get as much out of the land or out of the crops you grow. You can improve them, of course, you can do all that stuff. But we're now reaching a really difficult point in our history where the effects we're having are absolutely massive and global, massive. And despite warnings, we're still getting politicians talking about growth, growth, growth, you know, drill, drill, drill, which will end up with burn, burn, burn, and death, death, death, and it's very likely that the problems that we face, certainly by the time I'm dead, and certainly by the time my grandchildren are my age, it's going to be absolutely horrendous. Now, why are we not doing anything about it? Why do you think? Why are we pretending that we can solve this massive issue? 

Well I was going to mention that over the past few years in particular in terms of regen agriculture there have been a few things that are certainly a step in the right direction from my perspective which are you can get, farmers get incentives now to plant wildflowers for pollinators, buffers and strips for habitats for various different species, for your predators, for your pollinators, lots of research into things like beetle banks, lots of ways to reduce the amount of chemical pesticides that we're using in crops by providing conservation biocontrol, that's what it's called, isn't it? Where you're using what is naturally there in the environment to do your pest control for you? A large amount of it, the driving force is money, of course, money, money, money. I mean, my, my, the root of all evil, absolutely. But we're used to having cheap food. You know, I mean, when I was growing up in Edinburgh in the 60s, you know, I reckon people probably spent more of their free income on food than they do now. This insistence on it being cheap and then you end up with you know the hideousness of chickens that can't even bear their own weight because they're bred to increase their meat so so quickly and we're selling chickens at four pounds you know for a bird. I mean that's just insane.

What are your opinions on entomophagy? 

So eating insects. Yes, no, not so long ago I did support insect eating and I, yeah, because it's a very common thing and everywhere I've been in the world where it's hot and insects are abundant and generally large and swarm often, they are eaten. It's not unusual behavior. The reason it's very unusual in the West, particularly in a country like ours, is because of something called optimal foraging theory, a bit of science, but basically it means how much energy do you get back from eating the stuff you've collected compared with the amount of energy you've spent collecting it. So a family of four or three or four in the UK, if you had to survive on insects or arthropods, would probably spend more energy collecting it than you'd get from eating it. It would be hard work, basically. In Africa, in parts of the Far East, you can collect enough insect calories in half an hour that you would need to survive. So, yes, I mean, various sorts of commercially available or insect food which is harvested elsewhere in the world is just as good as meat or chicken, beef, whatever, without the footprint. 

I have to say, Alex, on bad days I regret my career choice. I really do. And you might go, oh, what? World famous entomologist regrets being an entomologist? Yeah, well, because if I'd studied archaeology or astronomy, the stuff that I loved, the stuff that I worked on, would always be there. I could dig in some sand and find a shark, look at the heavens, always find a nebula or something, learn about it. But I picked the natural world. And so for most of my time talking about it, lecturing, doing programs saying, you know, this is not right, blah, blah, blah. It's depressing. And most, you know, climate scientists are incredibly depressed. 

But you've been, you mentioned before that you've traveled around the world and seen insects and animals from all across the world. There must be things people are doing to help to look after these insects and animals, to provide habitat for them, to try and do something. Yes, there are little rays of hope all over the place. But I think we're past the point of little rays of hope here and there. We need big actions, we need people to do things. And we know what to do, but we don't do it. We have cop after cop after cop, we say, oh yes, this and the other, we must do this, nothing happens. The history of this whole enterprise is littered with broken pledges that just haven't been fulfilled, haven't been met, or probably ever will. It's almost as if some people don't believe that it's this bad. They just, well, I'll be fine just making it up. You know, it'll be all right. We'll work out some technological work around, you know, and this constant, constant bleating about sustainable growth. Well, there are two words you can't put together in a sentence if you've got a finite amount of stuff. And that is sustainable growth. You can grow, or you can be sustainable. You cannot do both. It's like, it's an oxymoron. And I'm afraid it's for economists and politicians. Our country at the moment are doing exactly that. Growth, growth, growth. Guys, you know, this hasn't worked. It's worked for a while, and we've now got to this point where it's no longer working, you know, globally. We need to do something else like perhaps degrowth. We can't keep on going business as usual. It's a disaster. 

So if you could get these politicians in a room, say you've got a blank check, they're gonna action, whatever it is it's gonna be, let's stick to insects just for the sake of succinctness, they're going to action, what would you say are your, what could we do, what could we do, what could we start today? If I could get all the politicians in the world into a locked room. 

Keep it PG as well. 

I can't say what I was going to say. Well we try, we keep on changing their minds. The Climate Bill, Nature Bill, Climate and Nature Bill had its second reading in January. We've been on about this for a few years now. We want parliamentary legislation in place that will hold the government in the UK to the the pledges they've made. What happened at the second reading? Labour blocked it because they want to do growth, growth, growth, so it'll be heard again in July but by that time there won't be enough parliamentary time and it won't happen. So it's depressing, it's depressing. You really need politicians who have scientific credentials, or at least listen to the scientists they get help from, advice. But look at Parliament. It's law, English, history, politics, economics. That's the degree, mainly, that's the degree courses that most of these guys and girls have. 

So more science in power you think? Absolutely, and I wonder if we're just too far past the two-party effectively, you know, a system, why don't we have a citizen assembly where, you know, each constituency puts forward somebody you think is good, who wants to do what that area wants. I mean, I think it's equally valid, but you do get into this situation where the time of a Parliament is relatively short. The problems that we've got to address are longer term. We need to do it. I'll probably continue saying we need to do something for the next 10 years and then I'll croak. One of the great things about being old, Alex, or being older, is that you don't have long to go. I won't see the full horrors unfold. 

Lovely message for our audience. 

Bringing it to the very simplest form, we've got to look after the natural world. That's it. We depend on the natural world. We are a part of nature. God help nature. But we tend to live as if we're apart from it. And we're not. Like we're looking down, we're separate. You cannot go on using stuff and yet that's what we do, that's what we've done for a very long time. Is it just in built into us that we just seem incapable of realising that every species on earth, you know, is there for a reason, well in that it has a job to do, it's part of the whole. And yet, and yet, we're just, you know, the diversity on earth has been falling steadily for the last 100 years, in the last 50 years it's got even faster. Genetic diversity as well is now falling. So, you know, is that what we want? Are you going to sit on top of a bare rock with your big stash of cash and go, yes! 

I think if there is a positive spin I can put on that... Oh yes, please do, Alex, please. I was at the Oxford Real Farming Conference a couple of weeks ago, and the number of talks there were on,  some of the insect ones, there was stuff on insect sentience, biocontrol, reducing pesticides, those sorts of things. And the number of people, the number of young farmers, young scientists, people of the sort of generations who are up-and-coming, who are very open-minded to a lot of these things and very very optimistic and hopeful and want to implement a change. And the number of young farmers we get here at FarmED who come along and they say I'm going to inherit my dad's farm, I'm looking at how I can do things a little bit differently for wildlife because I know that there's a problem like you say and I want to learn a little bit about how I can you know do my part. So I think although things might be a little bit of a crossroads right now, a bit of a concerning time, I think that the upcoming generations and you have seen this, you must have seen enthusiasm and... Bring it on, bring it on Alex. Yeah I mean that there are people who are gradually realising that there has to be a different way forward. But people who buy food, people who pay for their food have got to realise that you know things have to change. Yes we have to work with the natural world, we have to look after our hedges better, we have to think about the soil. 

Absolutely, God, we probably passed peak soil a while ago, so that's the amount of soil on the planet, which is an unbelievably thin amount, so the crust of the earth, that's the earth's crust, is about the thickness of a postage stamp stuck on a football, okay, that's the crust. And on top of that, in some places, not everywhere, you've got this infinitesimally water-colour-paint-thin wash of soil, that's it. It forms very slowly, it gets washed away very quickly, and as I say, we cannot make it. And so, yes, we have to look after it. We're going to have to pay a lot more for our food, which people will not like. 

We're going to have to be less demanding. I mean, in the winter here, why the hell should you be flying apples from New Zealand or avocados from Peru or any of the other things that we seem to have to get all the time. We have to have it all the time. We have to be available all the time. We've definitely moved away from a natural seasonality. We've just become so disconnected from the natural world and the cycle that pertains to where we are on the earth. That has to change and wastage has to change. I mean we now know, and it's a fact that's been bandied about for a few years now, that 30 percent or is it 33 percent, I think it's 33 percent of all the food grown for human consumption never gets onto a fork or into somebody's mouth, wasted either pre or post harvest. Which is baffling when you think about how many people around the world are living in poverty and starving as well. A third of all food. So I mean, say if you were the whole of the UK, it'd be a great thing if we did. Let's say the whole of the UK went organic. That would be fantastic. You might, for a couple of years, you might see a decrease in your yield of 12, 15% compared to 33% wastage.

If I could pose a big left turn. What's your favourite insect? 

Oh, god, I get asked that all the time. Favourite insect, well, very happily, five people around the world have named a new species of insect after me, which I know is not in the same league as Attenborough who’s got extinct animals and all sorts of things.

It's still the dream as an ecologist or as a nature, which one's the one? Naturalist is okay, naturist, but I'm sure there are some who are both. Yes, yes.  No, I mean five insect species named after me, wonderful, fantastic, but you know I haven't seen them in the wild, and one of them's very rare apparently, and probably won't survive the next 50 years, as indeed will many species not survive the next 50 years, unless we do something about it of course. 

So these five species that are named in your honour. 

Yeah, well, one's an ant, one's a shield bug from Borneo, one's a longhorn beetle from Uruguay, there's something else from Africa, and I think that there's a spider as well, actually. So it could be six species, but if you're going to say one species, of course it's the bee, I mean that's a collective term, okay, so there's no one bee species, that's my favourite insect, but yeah, bees, if you're gonna save one group of animals, at least save the bees, god! 

It's funny how there's some parts of, I think it's China, I apologise if I'm wrong, where they've got no natural bees now and they have to sort of, they have like a stick and they sort of pollinate by hand. 

Alex, you're absolutely right, that was 2015 that image appeared, it was an amazing image which should have sent shockwaves around the world. This is a part of China where they grow fruit trees, there's no wild habitat left, everything's been taken away for growing fruit trees, pesticides are used extensively, there are no bees now, so all the farmers have little sticks with a brush on the end and they go around every tree, every flower, and they have to pollinate the trees by hand themselves, all of them.  A bit of authenticity, yeah. I've seen lots of research going on to do with little nano drones that can do the job of the bees and things and you do sort of think with how much money is being put into developing this technology to replace something that already exists in the natural world we can just help. Replace the bees with nano drones. Fantastic, let's do it. Oh it's going to be fine, it's going to be fine. AI will sort it all out, technology will sort it out.  I was on the train a few weeks ago, there were two very well-meaning young engineers who were talking about carbon capture, it was quite exciting and they were discussing the various pros and cons of various carbon capture techniques and as we got to Waterloo station I was behind them and they fell bit silent because I was about to open the doors and I just went you know what we need is trees, lots of trees they went oh okay mad person behind them. That’s what we need trees to do it very very efficiently there's no carbon capture system currently that is going to do very much at all and will probably be very expensive. Sometimes we just can't invent a way out of a hole. I think this is probably one of them. 

And what about animals in livestock? Well, the almost scary fact is if you look at the biomass of livestock animals around the world and compare it to wild animals, mammals, how many more times do you think there are livestock mammals than wild ones? How many times? It's gonna be a number that's gonna shock me. 40. So there's 40 times more biomass of livestock animals than of wild ones. That's horrific and the same thing applies to birds as well so poultry than there are of wild birds. That's quite amazing. That's quite a shocking figure, yeah. 

As a way to round off our discussion ... I know what you're going to say Alex, can we end on a happy note? Yes. Please. I know where you're going with this. Yeah. What can... you have sort of touched on this, as we've been discussing. What can the average person at home, what can they do if they want to help? If they think, they hear what you're saying and they think I want to help the insects, I want to help the natural world, what could I do to help out, to do my part? 

Lots of people have gardens and they get a pest control ring to kill wasps. Now, I'm not talking, there are many species of wasp and many of them live and lay eggs in other insects, but the stripy things that ruin a picnic, they are the shock troops of the insect world, they are the shock and awe carnivores who will clear every soft-bodied caterpillary thing that's eating any of your plants and feed it to their young.  They're very, very good at doing that and they're fantastic and yet bees are sort of adored, wasps are reviled, you know, they're doing an equally useful job and I'll tell you millions, hundreds of millions of pounds are spent every year in the UK alone to get wasps out of the way. Okay, if the wasp's nest is hanging in your doorway, you might have to have it moved. But if it's in an attic or a shed, leave it where it is. And it will do a very good job cleaning up your garden, of all things. You might not want to have that. So just value the natural world. Look at it. Learn about it. And then you will come to value it. 

Coexist, is what you're saying. That's what we have to do. We just want everything our own way, you know. We're here, go on, we don't need you, oh we do. So just take an interest, to learn about it, to live alongside it. 

Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, I mean I was at Oxford on the staff for 25 years and I was actually quite horrified at how little natural history the average first year student knew. This is first year students who are doing biology, you would think that they'd be good at this and actually I was surprised at how little they knew and I did sort of think my god if this is Oxford, I shudder to think what happens elsewhere. But yes, learn about the natural world. The natural world is what keeps you alive, fills you full of wonder and fascination, and I am looking forward to the spring, which is not too far around the corner, when hopefully insects will be flying around again and doing interesting things, although I have to say they've been rather thin on the ground in the last few years, but you know, we can turn that corner. When you do things right, when you stop doing things you shouldn't be doing, when you look after hedgerows, when you don't use pesticides, things bound back pretty quickly, and that is the one thing that gives me hope. Stop doing what we shouldn't be doing, do what we should be doing, and natural history, particularly plants and insects, will actually come back pretty quickly. 

Great, and if someone had listened to what we've just said and they wanted to hear more of your thoughts on insects, the natural world, perhaps in a sort of written format, is there a way they could get hold of... 

Funny you should mention that, Alex, there's this book here called The Good Bug. That's a coincidence isn't it? It's it and it was fun to do actually, I wrote that last year and the firm said you know would I do a book which would be a follow-on from a book they did earlier called The Good Bee and I said well let's do The Good Bug, let's try and dispel this view that insects are eugh, you know, and say actually insects are extremely handy and very useful. And that is a very inexpensive book, I think it's 10 pounds or something, it's called a gift book, so it's that small format, I mean it isn't a huge book, but it's packed with wonderful facts about how incredibly useful insects are. And it’s available in all good bookshops and even a few bad ones. 

Jolly good, wonderful. It's been nice talking to you today, we've had lots to think about and lots to work on as a species I suppose. 

Yeah I'd hand our species C minus you know currently. Progress to be made, work to be done. Yes. 

Thank you for joining us this week for the FarmED Podcast. Please join us again next time we're having more hopeful conversations about food and farming. Do check us out on social media, like I said. Drop us a review. See you next time.

The next FarmED Podcast drop on April 17th, featuring Sarah Langford. bestselling author of Rooted: How Regenerative Farming Can Change the World.